352 FE upgrade questions... - Page 2

jonmark1985 · 05-13-2008, 05:25 PM

Hey, I did mention he should got to the 427 low riser head!

Yeah, I haven't had any personal exprerience with the Autolite 4100, but I hear it is supposed to be a great carb.

Mwieczorek · 05-13-2008, 07:46 PM

Ok, I have a 352. It's not exactly a "mega cubes" engine. I have a spare pair of heads that I can have rebuilt and ported to improve their flow numbers. Knowing that the 352 is on the small end of the FE family, hence it moves less air than its bigger brothers, can the stock heads be massaged to support 350 horsepower? I'm not trying to build a race engine, just a decently built motor that can go out and not embarass me on the street (or maybe at the strip once in a while). One website I read stated that simply swapping the stock log manifolds and exhaust for a set of headers and decent flowing exhaust was worth 30 - 60 HP on these cars. I don't know how much stock to put into that statement, but from looking at the manifolds that are on there, maybe 30 HP isn't that far out. Pair that newfound exhaust flow with a better flowing intake and carb setup and a camshaft that takes advantage of it all and 325 - 350 HP definitely shouldn't be too hard to achieve, right?

I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on heads and pistons and connecting rods and all that, I already have one car with a motor that is built that way in my other car. I'm thinking more along these lines:

Used Edelbrock Performer FE intake - $125 (Ebay)
Used Holley carburetor - $150 (Ebay, can possibly get for less from race buddies)
Hooker Super Comp. Headers - $500 (Summit)
Cam/lifters/valvesprings/keepers/timing chain kit - $300 (Ebay - see below)
2.5" dual exhaust with glasspacks: $400 (local shop price estimate)

Here's 2 of the possible cam/lifter kits I'm looking at:
Contestant #1: Link to Ebay kit 1

Contestant #2 (I like this one, but it claims you need a 2000 RPM stall converter): Link to Ebay kit 2

There's $1500 worth of upgrading. If I have my spare heads worked over, I'd probably be up to $2000. I'm not opposed to saving cash at the expense of a little sweat, so I don't mind buying a dirty old intake and cleaning it up or buying a used carburetor and rebuilding it. The wrenching time is a good part of what makes this fun for me. I'm also not stuck on brands, I don't have to have a Comp or a Crane camshaft if a Melling or Elgin will do the trick.

Am I crazy, or does this seem like a decent starting point for upgrading this motor?

Matt

MBDiagMan · 05-13-2008, 10:36 PM

BTW, shaft rockers are FAAaaarrr.... Superior to the other arrangements that have been concocted in the last 50+ years. Adjustable rockers can be had if you wish, but if you are putting in a new cam and lifters and staying hydrualic, there is no need for adjustables.

jonmark1985 · 05-14-2008, 05:06 AM

Mwieczorek,

Without a flow bench its gonna be hard to guess the potential of the heads you have after you port them. If you can get 175-180 CFM on the intake side and reasonable exhaust flow you should be capable of 350 horse, with the right camshaft, intake, and headders.

I run a Melling tourqe cam in my 89 Firebird, and I have no real complaints. A higher stall convertor would be nice though, as even with a tourqe cam it's kinda boggy below 1500 rpm.

Thats why I suggest Comp, I've had really great luck with them as far as shooting me part numbers, reccomended stalls, and gears. Melling may do the same, but if you look in there catalogs its all pretty dry.

Oreilly Auto Parts used to carry reman Holley 4160's, I think I bought mine at $150 (employee discount) and the average joe can get them for around $200. I'm just throwing that out there.

MBDiagMan,

Far superior may be a little of a stretch. Yes Jesel's rocker arm systems are insanely good, but the factory Ford peices aren't quite the same thing. The shafts aren't the tough and under big lift or a good rev can be damaged.

Also an aftermarket cam may have a reduced cam circle and require some form of a adjustment to the pushrods or rocker arms. I would look for solid lifter rocker arms and lean that way. They still retain the shaft, so no expensive machining should be needed, and you get some adjustability. On Ebay they run about $100 for a set.

TBIRD430 · 05-14-2008, 12:51 PM

"mwieczorek" just by u mentioning that ur considering a cam requiring a STALL torque converter, u just informed me u do want MODERATELY more HORSEPOWER GAINS from that 352cid. LOL!!! I would save the cash on ur spare heads & put it towards some Edelbrock Performer heads, and go ahead & get the used Edelbrock intake. Plus this stuff is ALL dyno-matched, if u add the Edelbrock cam kit... Well u understand.

I'm a BIG fan of Carter & Edelbrock square-bore electric choke carbs too. All of this would bolt right up to that FE motor u guys have and shed some WEIGHT in the process as well!!!

MBDiagMan · 05-14-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonmark1985

Hey, I did mention he should got to the 427 low riser head!

Yeah, I haven't had any personal exprerience with the Autolite 4100, but I hear it is supposed to be a great carb.

If you bolt a set of 427 heads, low riser or anything else, to a 352, get ready to do some damage. The valve sizes are too big for the 352 bore size such that there will be interference.

Jonmark,

I was referring to the superiority of a shaft rocker system in general, not his specific application, although there are plenty of aftermarket cams that will work fine with them. Yes, an adjustable set would be the best to have, but they were only used on the performance engines, thus are pretty tough to find these days.

The stamped steel rockers with ball and socket came along and into acceptance because they were much cheaper to manufacture thus putting money in the car manufacturers pockets.

jonmark1985 · 05-14-2008, 04:01 PM

If you do a search on ebay you can find the rockers pretty easily.

I'd also wonder if the pistons can be fly-cut and the cylinder clearanced (like the 302 boss) for the larger 427 valves.

Mwieczorek · 05-14-2008, 07:24 PM

Well, I just looked up these Edelbrock heads, they're $750 EACH from Summit Racing. Sorry, I don't think that's gonna fit the budget.

I've built some screamin' Pontiac motors, and I've never used anything but massaged factory heads. Are you guys telling me that these Ford heads suck SO BAD that they can't be made to flow decent with some basic port work? I have a couple of local machine shops that do good work for a fair price. I can have these heads reconditioned and ported and still be less than the cost of ONE of those Edelbrock heads.

Like I said, I'm looking to get 325 - 350 Horsepower or so. That's less than one HP per cubic inch. I'm not trying to build a rocket, I'm just trying to make my Galaxie a little less "Grandpa's cruiser" and a little more "muscle car".

I'm gonna start looking for deals on Ebay and swap meets and save up for the big ticket items (headers, new exhaust, etc) and hopefully I'll be able to do some surgery this fall or winter. I've got a monthly budget and I'm not gonna go into debt over this car. I've got some other areas to upgrade too (i.e. swapping out the front drums for disc brakes, new wheels & tires, new vinyl top, etc) so my budget has to cover a lot of stuff.

Matt

jonmark1985 · 05-14-2008, 07:43 PM

I'm just thinking that 350 is a fairly big number, considering the engine maybe was at 200 factory. Your talking about adding 150 horse to that motor with just a cam change, intake swap, four barrel and headers. Thats a big increase considering it sounds like you want a stock idle.

I don't really like playing the numbers game, its all bogus anyway.

I ported the heads (#187 swirlport) in my Firebird 305", put in a melling tourqe cam, flowtech headers, no cat, performance exhaust, Edlebrock manifold, Holley carb, Accel cap, rotor, wires, coil, deletd the smog and the AC. The bottom end has all new parts and has been bored to 316". I'd bet I'm still only at around 270 horse, and your talking about making about .9 horse per cube.

I think a more realistic figure would be 300-310 horse at the flywheel for that engine.

I'd think all of us would like to see you build the engine, and dyno it though. That way we get some real proof rather than just playing some bogus numbers game.

The heads may be adequate of hitting 350 hp, but I think you're gonna spend some very careful attention to the camshaft, headers, intake, and carb. In fact you'll probably want to flowbench the heads and report those numbers to your cam manufacturer.

Mwieczorek · 05-15-2008, 05:58 AM

Johnmark - I'm definitely going to have to pay close attention to making sure the camshaft works with whatever setup I end up building. Proper parts selection is the key to making power.

I think you're probably right about the HP estimate. I did some quick math, and assuming that my Galaxie with me at the wheel weighs 3900 lbs, I need around 278 flywheel HP to run the quarter mile in 14.5 seconds. I think that for this big ol' car, 14 - 14.5 seconds is a good goal.

Like I said, I'm gonna have to start squirreling parts. I'll start with an intake and headers, and then I'll have my spare heads re-worked and I'll buy the cam last, put it all together, and have an exhaust bent up and installed. I'm just going to drive the car as-is this summer, and we'll see where we are in the fall.

I built the 400 that is in my Trans Am. I had the bottom end rebuilt with 0.030" over forged flat top pistons and had it zero decked. I had my 6X-4 heads milled 0.060" on the deck and intake faces (yeah, thats sixty thousandths) to get the compression up to 9.5:1. I did some basic porting work to the heads and polished the exhaust ports, but they're the best flowing of the "smog era" heads anyways, so their only real problem was compression. I'm running a Pontiac Ram Air IV camshaft with Rhoads lifters and roller rockers. Its topped off with an Edelbrock Performer intake and a properly tuned Quadrajet. It's exhausting through a set of Dynomax ceramic coated headers and a Thrush 2.5" dual exhaust. That motor makes insane power. It's matched up to a prepped TH350 with a custom 3000 RPM stall converter and a a 10-bolt positraction rear end with 3.73:1 gears. It pulls like a freight train and will run a standing quarter mile in 12.5 seconds. I haven't made it over to the dyno yet, but if you run the math, its got to be making all of 400 HP at the flywheel. I run out at Norwalk Raceway (ok, now it's Summit Motorsports Park) on Wednesday nights. It's a bummer 'cause we keep getting rained out. Hopefully next week it'll be nice enough to go racing again, I want to add to my trophy collection.

Matt