What fuel additive to use for a stock 429 4-V? What's a good brand/solution?

[TheBobsHere]

As far as the fishy story goes.... Back in the day they used to put waxes in the oil to help prevent engine wear. The problem with that is those waxes would bake in the engine causing a carbon buildup in addition to the normal carbon buildup. The detergents of the day were no mach for this carbonized wax cocktail that would coat the entire inside of the engine. The carbon would get so thick it would break off and fall to the oil pan then more carbon would begin building up again and consequently break off again. This cycle would continue over and over again, every time ending up in the oil pan. While much of the crap in the oil pan was removed during the oil change the heaviest and hardest particles would stay behind until there was enough crap to get sucked up by the oil pump. The larger pieces would block the oil pickup screen causing low oil pressure that led to engine damage. The smaller particles would collect in oil passages and eventually starve moving parts for oil, also causing engine damage. To combat this evil process and help make the engine last longer, before doing oil changes people would run everything from diesel fuel to kerosene trying to flush the carbon buildup out of the engine. The problem is, if the engine was never flushed between oil changes and then modern oil is added to one of these Kentucky fried engines the modern oil will essentially do what it's supposed to and clean the engine. Then all that carbon will start to come off all at once. I don't care how good modern oil is, it just wont be able to suspend 40 years of carbon buildup and all that crap has nowhere else to go but the oil pan and once there it'll get picked by the oil pump and the larger pieces will clog the oil pickup, starving the engine for oil, the smaller pieces will do what they do and buildup in oil passages. I've seen this happen first hand. This is why I suggested doing a Seafoam flush. Just make sure to drop the oil pan afterwords to clean out all the crap that comes out of the engine so you can start fresh and not damage your new baby.
Good luck

[GalaxieJeff]

Yes and no. They did not put wax into the oil, it was there as it was pumped from the ground. Refining removes most of it, the process has been around since the 1930's. In '59 a new process was discovered called 'hydrocracking' by Chevron(called a group III oil), in which the wax and paraffin molecules are broken down into mineral oil molecules. Today this process is only used on about half the oils on the shelf. Still plenty of waxy motor oils out there.

The problem with wax is not carboning up, (the carbon comes from the combustion process and seeps past the rings), but rather it falls from suspension and forms sludge, or it thickens up the oil too much at cold temps.

Again, well before the Nova, there has been detergents in motor oils.
The problems people are having with sludge in there engines is due to old engines and/or poor past maintenance. Nothing to do with modern oils in an old engine.



Oh, FYI, Mobil-1, Syntech and most other off the shelf "synthetics" are not true synthetics. They are really group III oils, highly refined crude oil based refined via hydrocracking. The FTC determined 'synthetic' was a marketing term and manufacturers could use it as they see fit.

[TheBobsHere]

Back in the late 80's the theater I was working for had a ton of at the time 25 to 4 year old monsters they gave the actors to drive (so they had no excuses if they missed call). I was put in charge of the entire fleet of 60's and 70'sLincoln's and Caddy's as well as some early 80's Buick's. The records that were kept from before I was put in charge of the beastly fleet stated oil changes were done every 2500 miles for at least 20 years. The problems came when the bulk oil purchase they made in the late 70's ran out and they bought another 10 years of oil, only they changed brands (switched from Quaker State to ironically, Chevron). When they did this the modern (compered to 1977) oil started cleaning that crap off. I had to pull around 10 oil pans in one month just to keep from loosing the classic cars (and my job). So, regardless of where the carbon fritters inside of the engines came from, those deposits were more of a problem than the little bit of sludge that was present during oil changes. I flushed all of the engines and cleaned out the oil pans, which did have some tar like sludge but mostly a crapload of rock hard carbon chunks sitting them. We only lost a 77 Caddy, which since that car was possessed, was fine by me lol. So you see, today's oil is even better than the oil from 87 and will cause any buildup to just get cleaned off even faster than it did then and do the same thing it did then, clog the oil pickup and starve the engine for oil.
If you can look through the oil filler and see fried chicken like carbon buildup, you need to flush the system and clean the oil pan. Or you'll wish you did.

[Mr. 429]

I appreciate the lively debate here, though I didn't mean to cause a ruckus .

Here's my plan then:

1. Seafoam the engine just to be sure (even though I just filled it with what I know now as wanna-be synthetic).

2. Drop oil pan, clean and replace gasket. What's good to use to clean the oil pan?

3. Fill again with "synthetic" and later check the filter for KFC after running it a while. Any recommendations for a good oil brand/type?

4. Drain the fuel tank, blow out the lines, replace fuel filter. (Flush the tank a little with new gas to remove sediment?)

5. Fill up with 93 octane, add Lucas Fuel Treatment (or Gumout) to full tank

6. Start 'er up and see how she runs. (When I said she was running rough before, it wasn't any metal on metal sound or clacking, just sounded like she was suffocated for air or gas, having trouble dying when idling at first)


Thank you very much for the advice, it is more than a little helpful and puts to rest some misconceptions I had.

GalaxieJeff - keep in mind that I easily pass rice-burner showoffs on the freeway in the Crown Vic while merging, and when I (very rarely) manually shift it off a light when I'm feeling dumb and silly, the guy revving his engine in the Honda Civic can't keep up with an "old man's car." Just saying that calling your 302 "mild", well its a relative term these days.

[TheBobsHere]

"What's good to use to clean the oil pan?" If there's any sludge/tar left in the bottom a putty knife works pretty well, then a shop rag with anything that cuts the rest, could be Sea Foam could be diesel. It's pretty much your choice.

[GalaxieJeff]

First, thats anecdotal evidence, take it for what it is, second you'll excuse me if I highly doubt the validity of the story. If the oil was changed religiously every 2500 miles, there never would have been any sludge or carbon build up.
So this was the late 1980's with bulk oil from the late 70's, that would have made the oil an API SE rating. SF rated oils started in 1980, thus every vehicle 5-10 years old was using too old of a oil not designed to be used in those engines. Sounds like a bad maintenance program to me. Hey wait a second, some of those cars you said were 25 years old, that makes them well into the 1960's models (when oils had an SD service rating)and the "good batch" of oil was bought in the late '70's. Hmmm why didn't those older engines have problems with the late '70's oil?
I'll tell you why, your highly mistaken on the cause of the problems, again, wax in the oil does not cook into carbon, if something was getting the oil hot enough to turn to hard carbon deposites there were other major problems. Again, all crude based oils have wax in them and since the 1930's the refining process leaves roughly 15% waxes in the oil, which BTW to a degree is beneficial and there by design. This type of refining is still used today and the vast majority of the oil on the shelves is refined this way, these are called group II oils. In 1959 a new refining process was discovered which among other things still leaves about 3% wax behind, again by design since this 'hydrocracking' refining leaves creates a better quality oil that doesn't require as much wax. These oils are called group III and almost every on the shelf so called "synthetics" are of this type. So unless your using these group III's your using oils with the same amount of wax they have had since the 1930's, sorry!
First commercial detergent oil was introduced in the mid 1930s and after WW2 most oils were using it, since 1960 or '61 "high detergency" oils have been in use, about the only ones that didn't were some straight weight oils.
Facts, not anecdotal stories.

Originally Posted by TheBobsHere

Back in the late 80's the theater I was working for had a ton of at the time 25 to 4 year old monsters they gave the actors to drive (so they had no excuses if they missed call). I was put in charge of the entire fleet of 60's and 70'sLincoln's and Caddy's as well as some early 80's Buick's. The records that were kept from before I was put in charge of the beastly fleet stated oil changes were done every 2500 miles for at least 20 years. The problems came when the bulk oil purchase they made in the late 70's ran outdeposits and they bought another 10 years of oil, only they changed brands (switched from Quaker State to ironically, Chevron). When they did this the modern (compered to 1977) oil started cleaning that crap off. I had to pull around 10 oil pans in one month just to keep from loosing the classic cars (and my job). So, regardless of where the carbon fritters inside of the engines came from, those deposits were more of a problem than the little bit of sludge that was present during oil changes. I flushed all of the engines and cleaned out the oil pans, which did have some tar like sludge but mostly a crapload of rock hard carbon chunks sitting them. We only lost a 77 Caddy, which since that car was possessed, was fine by me lol. So you see, today's oil is even better than the oil from 87 and will cause any buildup to just get cleaned off even faster than it did then and do the same thing it did then, clog the oil pickup and starve the engine for oil.
If you can look through the oil filler and see fried chicken like carbon buildup, you need to flush the system and clean the oil pan. Or you'll wish you did.

[GalaxieJeff]

1) Don't worry about the quality, though it is not a true PAO or ester based/made in a lab synthetic it is still a high quality group III oil.
When using a flush (Seafoam, Rislone, etc), get cheap oil filters, change the filter only and add the flush (this way you loose about a quart with the old filter then adding the flush your roughly back to correct level). The new filter will get loaded up with the varnish/contaminants. After draining the flush, use another cheap filter and cheap oil, change that after a couple hundred miles. Now add the normal stuff you plan on using.

2) If there is old sludge build up, running a cleaner through it could expose old dried up gaskets and seals all over the place. They were bad to begin with, the sludge coating them kept them from leaking. Though low miles, those are still 40 year old gaskets, don't be surprised by new leaks, shouldn't harm anything (other then having to clean the engine more often and add oil on occasion) and possibly, over time the gaskets could start sealing a little better. All oils have as part of their additive package, stuff that helps keep gaskets/seals pliable and swells them.

3) There are only a hand full of companies that make filters then repackage them for various other companies.
NAPA and Wix filters are really good, they are made by Dana/Wix. IIRC Dana/Wix also makes filters for Castrol but only their premium filters. Baldwin/Hastings made filters are also high quality, several other brands besides their own, most all made by Champion suck, watch out for AC/Delco brand as they are being made by Champion the past few years, Fram is another one to stay away from.

4) If you drop the tank to 'flush' it use the proper tank cleaners, also inspect for rust scale, might need a tank sealer.

5) If that Lucas is just a fuel system carb/injector cleaner, fine, if it claims other stuff forget it, just use Gumout or better yet Techron.

Originally Posted by Mr. 429

1. Seafoam the engine just to be sure (even though I just filled it with what I know now as wanna-be synthetic).

2. Drop oil pan, clean and replace gasket. What's good to use to clean the oil pan?

3. Fill again with "synthetic" and later check the filter for KFC after running it a while. Any recommendations for a good oil brand/type?

4. Drain the fuel tank, blow out the lines, replace fuel filter. (Flush the tank a little with new gas to remove sediment?)

5. Fill up with 93 octane, add Lucas Fuel Treatment (or Gumout) to full tank

[TheBobsHere]

GalaxieJeff, believe what you want . This was my experience no matter what you think or believe so it doesn't really matter. You may know more about oil than me but, what happened happened, nothing is going to change that. I don't need to lie to impress anyone, least of all you. If you have problems believing others that's not my problem, it's yours. My comments still stand. Do you need proof of everything? Did we really go to the moon? WTF. Welcome to the site Bob.
The late 70's oil was the first part of the problem (Obviously not a "good batch" if it left behind all of that crap it was cheap ass Quaker State) the late 80's oil caused the crap in the engine to slough off and finished the problem by the way.

[TheBobsHere]

How does this site plan to bring in new members if this is the way they're treated?
I'm not sitting here talking about how my 4.6 2v makes 500HP NA. An impossibility. Dude, you need to get over whatever trust issues you have. Not everyone lies.

[GalaxieJeff]

Dude, you need to get over the fact you have nothing to back you claims, your simply "guessing" what caused the problems. Rather then coming up with FACTS like I have you get defensive and run away.
There is a huge difference between a simple mechanic cleaning sludge from an oil pan vs. knowing the true cause behind it. I've actually studied tribology and I've learned a lot from people that have forgotten more then I ever knew.
Again, you give an anecdotal story as the sole base of evidence, I presented facts. Sorry if that offends you, I guess some people can not handle having what they thought they knew (urban legends, myths and internet lore) proven false.